Different Worldviews

[kevin_standlee]

I find myself wondering what Jonathan McAlmont and Danny O'Dare do to put bread on the table, and musing over whether whatever that is compared to my Day Jobbe is one of the reasons we are talking past each other to the point where I have taken Mary Kay Kare's advice about saying anything else over there. (In short, I am "Just [letting] people be wrong on the Internet…", as he asks.)

My Day Jobbe, which I should be doing right now and will be again in a few minutes, is a computer database programmer. I primarily write and maintain Microsoft Access-based small database application for quick deployment. (Warning: People who snark that Access isn't a "real database" will be considered discussion derailers and treated accordingly. I'm allowed to do that on my home turf, evil person that I am.) Being a programmer gives me a certain view of how I approach the world, process-wise. The character traits that led me into computer solutions engineering possibly are what drew me to an interest in parliamentary law, which is also a large rule-set that a knowledgeable person can "program" to accomplish certain tasks. I find satisfaction when the rules have been followed and everyone has had their say within those rules, even if I don't necessarily get my way. (Besides, if I lose, I often have a way to come back another day when the conditions have changed.) That doesn't necessarily mean I like the result, but if the decision was legal, I have no grounds for attacking on that basis.

(Example: the Mark Protection Committee's decisions in Australia in 2011 2010 were legal within the rules framework, even though their substance infuriated me. I therefore worked within that same framework to overturn the decision legally. I never claimed the decision was illegitimate, only ill-advised, and I'd have a very difficult time having a meaningful discussion with someone who doesn't see the difference.)

Not everyone thinks rules are worthwhile. That doesn't make them inherently evil (c.f. the Dungeons & Dragons "chaotic good" alignment; I'm probably lawful good on that scale, recognizing that paladins and their ilk can be a right pain to be around), but it often makes it nearly impossible for me to have a useful debate with them, on account of we differ so badly on basic assumptions. It's as though I brought a golf club and they have a tennis racquet, and we're standing in the middle of cricket pitch trying to play the game. (Of course, being adverse to rules, they probably aren't interested in any competitive sports anyway, but that's another story.)

Comments

[daveon.livejournal.com]

Just finished reading that thread. Good grief.

I don't think Jonathon McAlmont noticed but he basically went in a 180 degree turn during that discussion. Starting out wanting to fix the discussion and ended up pleading for the discussion to stop and let him and people he agrees with get on with moaning and doing nothing.

Danny, on the other hand, having glanced at his blog. Oh I know Danny. Ok, not personally, but I've met him. He's an old school British left winger of the kind that Thatcher was able to destroy so ably in the 1980s, in large part because she was focused and organized and they were just what you saw on that thread. Hating anything that smacks of authority and completely disdainful of anything that doesn't fit their view of ideological purity. He wants his fandom pure and delivered the way he wants and will brook no compromise.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Indeed, we're being accused of being old geezers. Remember, the discovery that fandom is getting older and the youngsters are being driven way is Brand New and nobody has ever made it before, no matter that the exact same argument was being made before I was born. Demanding that you should be able to opine on anything at all with no reference to facts or reality means that what they really want is to shout at clouds.

I know, I really do sound like the old fogeys who patronized me when I was coming into fandom. The longer I hung around, the more I mostly understood their air of amused impatience with me. I guess every generation has to learn it for themselves. In a generation, Jonathan is going to be so unhappy when the Cool Kidz tell him that he needs to just die already. Or maybe not; he's possible immune to introspection.

Thanks for the context on Danny. I gave up on him sooner, since it seemed clear that he is the Sole Authority on Everything. (Despite what it may seem to certain Johnathan McAlmonts, I don't consider myself the sole authority on anything. Heck, I even gave a wrong opinion speaking at least semi-officially on THA.org, and had to backpedal and say, "you're right, I'm wrong" when someone else pointed out that I'd misunderstood the rule in question.)

[daveon.livejournal.com]

Amusingly, I have never seen anybody actually do a flounce off their own blog in the way that Jonathon just closed that thread.

I was resisting adding the following to his comment about aging fandom: No Jonathon, the reason why you perceive fandom is getting older and less relevant is because the older people are the ones stuck doing the work while the younger generation are out there reinventing wheels and marveling at their ingenuity. Gods, this has made me feel old, much older than I actually am.

Funny thing though. For all the Hugos are not relevant and Fandom is a bunch of old farts. It still seems to keep on going.... funny that don't you think?

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

If it weren't for the fact that I'm desperately trying to stay out in the hope that the whole discussion will die, I'd go in and say something about shouting at clouds, which is exactly what he's doing.

And thank you so much for the political analogy. I, of course, am Not Allowed to have an opinion about UK politics in his world view.

He'll likely end up a old, bitter, right-winger. See "Why Conservatives Think the Ends Justify the Means" spotted on Jay Lake's blog. I identify strongly with the liberal, process-oriented people, not the "do anything to win because I'm right" conservatives.

[daveon.livejournal.com]

From an interesting personal perspective of British politics, given her recent demise. One of the things that worked well for Thatcher was a version of the attitudes I'm seeing there. A navel gazing desire for ideological purity over pragmatism and actual effort, which gave her, an organized and focused person, a great way to pick off the various factions of the left one by one without having to worry all that much about the competition.

In some respects the GOP are doing something similar now with the primary process and the impact on candidates.

I'm with Andrew, I'm done with him. He's lost all coherence of his position except for a feeling that people are picking on him.