Conventions: Members Versus Customers

[kevin_standlee]

The post-Eastercon discussions going on in eastercon and elsewhere include the question of those people who attend conventions viewing themselves solely as "paying customers." I suggested we may need to start printing a fine-print contract on membership materials, the way sporting events and concerts do on their tickets, such as:

THIS IS NOT A TICKET. You are a member of this convention. This event is being organized entirely by volunteers who are working without compensation and who had to pay for their own memberships and travel expenses. While the organizers will make a reasonable effort to present this event in the way it is described in its written materials, they cannot guarantee that all things will happen as planned. By purchasing this membership you explicitly acknowledge that all functions are subject to change or cancellation with or without notice for any reason whatsoever.

This is only a rough first effort, but I think you get the idea. It is a little sad that I can say that I'm quite serious that we may really need to do this or face threats of litigation for "false advertising" and "breech of contract" with attendees.

Comments

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Wow, I wish I'd been there to see the situations you describe. I'm sorry you were treated that way. Deb is right that we don't like it to happen that way. And while I'm not rejecting your own experience, I know I've never been treated that way as a volunteer, and I've volunteered at all levels, including volunteering to help people who I don't know personally. I sure hope you don't think I've condescended to you when you've worked for and with me, for instance.

I think part of the problem is size. Managing a Potlatch/SMOFcon-sized convention is radically different from a BayCon or certainly a Worldcon, and involved different "coping strategies" from the people working on them, I think. After all, we can run Registration at a Potlatch by just setting people's name badges out on a table and trusting people to take care of themselves. I don't think that would work well with BayCon or a Worldcon.

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

So ... your planet's idea of courtesy is to hold your friends at a distance?

How I interact with my friends is my own affair, and I haven't discussed that at any level here.

What I (and bovil) have talked about is how a reversion to courteous rituals in stressful conditions is nearly automatic -- in part because of my upbringing, and in part because I know I have a short temper when I'm overly tired.

If I have time and any kind of ease, I interact with people differently -- well, at least people I like. With people I don't like, that courteous mask stays in place 100% of the time.

Way to go. OK, so that's why I felt so abused and unappreciated when I volunteered at a worldcon. I certainly won't do that again.

I'm sorry -- did you volunteer to me?

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

Well, then, if you were my colleague, that certainly would communicate to me that you were all business, no friendship.

No, no -- don't mistake me. I don't do this all of the time! That would send a message of cold indifference to some very fine people.

Maybe it's how it's said?

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

...in part because I know I have a short temper when I'm overly tired.

Me, too, and for another factor I now know to be blood sugar-related. On the day before Interaction, I'd arrived at the SECC just off the train from York, found no place from which I could work, knew I had to eat something or risk keeling over, but also knew that there were a whole bunch of Events issues piling up even as I stood there. I grabbed one of the not-too-great sandwiches from the shop and -- there being no place to sit, went and sat on the floor in a corner of an SECC hallway. As I sat there desperately trying to eat quickly without choking -- I just wanted about five or ten minutes -- an otherwise well-meaning fan whom I know came over and started cheerfully burbling at me.

It's not his fault that I snapped at him. Just too many things had piled up at once, and he had the misfortune to be the straw dropping on this camel's back. He was certainly stunned by the loud nature of my outburst -- I can get really angry -- which was all out of proportion to the situation.

Knowing how much trouble I can be, I work very hard to try and keep it under control, and possibly I end up coming across as a bit distant in stressful circumstances.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

I've found most folks regularly involved in running large cons find alternate small cons at which they don't have to volunteer and can let their hair down.

Back in the day, before Minicon shrank, DemiCon was where all the staff went a month after the con to relax and recover. If you wanted to get to know Minicon staffers as people rather than as workers, you went to DemiCon, where the only table they would likely to be at was a card table.

I don't think this is the ethos of staff dealing with ticket holders. If somebody comes to me with business, I want to get that business taken care of (particularly if there's a lot more waiting). I think this is a matter of trying to get a job done regardless of the lack of sleep, the amount of partying done the night before or the chaos going on in the department. Even fabulously-run WorldCons have a huge load of chaos going on.

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

No, I didn't volunteer to you personally. But I volunteered to people who do what you're advocating and explaining the reasons for. And now I know why they do it.

Well, at least why *some* people might do so -- because that is one of their stress-coping mechanisms. (Some people might do it because they're asea for other reasons, too.) I try never to assume that everybody has the same triggers.

Your separation of friends from "friendly acquaintances" (or whatever you want to call the relationship I have with the people who said "May I help you?") is also puzzling.

Well, I don't know about your relationships, and so please don't think my comments should apply to you, or to them. But you asked how I treat my friends -- and that term, for me, applies to a much closer relationship that perhaps for others.

Because of my experiences in fandom, I've met, quite literally, thousands of people. My acquaintances of the friendly sort number in the hundreds. But my friends -- the ones I know well and who know more than the public me -- constitute a smaller subset of those "friendly acquaintances."

I try to treat everyone at cons as friends, whether I know them or not.

I'm glad that works for you. Me? I'm not going to abuse total strangers the way I do my friends.

Treating everyone as well as I know how is important to me, too. And sometimes, that means falling back on courtesy, lest the dueling begin.

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

By contrast, I don't like faux personal touches in what's really a business relationship. I hate it when Safeway clerks, instead of giving me the receipt, spend 15 seconds scanning it for my name so they can call me by it.

*snort* We don't have Safeway...but Filene's clerks used to do the same thing...and mispronounce my name every time. Argh.

[cherylmorgan.livejournal.com]

When a conrunner behind a desk who knows me personally sees me coming their usual reaction is something like, "Go away, I'm busy," or some less polite variation on that.

[cherylmorgan.livejournal.com]

I suspect that even if this were printed in 18-point type it would not register with most people. Such things go in one eye and out the other. It is useful only as small print to be trotted out after people have expressed moral indignation or threatened to sue over some minor failing of the convention. I suspect it will prove necessary soon, but actually there are two other disclaimers I'd like to see first.

1. When people sign up for a dealer table: "I understand that I am entering into a commercial arrangement with the convention and this may involve my receiving communications of a commercial nature from the convention."

2. When people ask to be on panel: "I hereby grant the convention the right to use my name in their publications and on their web site, both generally as a panelist and specifically regarding any panels that I agree to be on."

Not mentioning any awkward persons by name, of course.

Re: No Spectators

[whumpdotcom.livejournal.com]

Yes, a different person. It wasn't as much as the person's politics (though they were shocked and offended that people would criticize the President,) but the notion that the conrunners were there to put on a show for the rubes paying custom members.

[dinogrl.livejournal.com]

Creation events are manned mostly by volunteers, who may, or may not get a few perks such as Creation merchandise, ooh, what wonderful compensation! {gag}

[dinogrl.livejournal.com]

Ahem... expecting people to :::read::: during the convention? I totally agree with your analysis of "in one eye and out the other." Case in point: (speaking of vending at a convention) I have my prices marked, and credit card signs all over my tables. Frequently I get asked how much something is, or if I take Visa, MC, blah, blah, blah...I attribute it to instant gratification.

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

But I would have thought it clear that that's not what I meant by "treating everyone at cons as friends."

I just mean talking to people in a friendly manner, rather than in a polite stranger manner. Surely the difference is clear.

No, the difference is not clear. The difference is perception-based, and our perceptions may vary. Different people see things differently. And, in fact, what you see as "polite stranger manner" may be all someone's capable of doing for anybody at a particular time.

But it is a withdrawal, and if it's a widespread tactic I think being treated as strangers is a significant part of what makes con attendees think of themselves as ticket-holders rather than members of something.

Don't assume it is a "tactic" -- tactics are aimed at winning battles; "coping mechanisms" are designed to just get you through something.

My biggest problem with your comments here is that you talk about "conrunner language" as if anyone who is a conrunner acts in this particular way.

I've heard others speak similarly of convention runners and SMOFs -- that we are all X or we are Y or that some behavior or attitude is "just the way all SMOFS act." Given how much of myself I've put into some conventions, your stereotyping has managed to hit one of my hot buttons.

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

I think you do know the difference.

Think all you want. You do not know me, so you can't possibly judge my knowledge, reactions, or perceptions with any reliability. (But I'm a bit unclear on what I'm supposed to know the difference *between.*)

Don't stereotype me.

Wouldn't dream of it. I have no idea if you are affiliated with some clearly identifiable group.

What interests me is that you talk about "conrunner language" while professing to be a convention runner yourself. So, if it's universal, you must do it, too. If it's not universal, classifying it as "conrunner language" is slapping an unfair label on convention runners.

[twilight2000.livejournal.com]

Is it possible that it's as much where/how one was raised and with what expectations as anything else?

debgeisler appears to perceive "May I help you?" as being polite when she's up to her a** in alligators -- works for me -- but not, apparently, for all. calimac would rather here (and it appears would more likely say) "Hi, Kevin, glad you made it, here's your reg packet, see you later", but that's breaking the pattern that gets some folks through the hecticness of a big con.

It sounds like folks just coming from a different place and hearing each other's communications differently.

Which doesn't solve the problem, but might give us a handle on where to start the conversation.

If some folks need a coping mechanism to get thru the chaos of a big con and others need the personal touch to feel like it was worth taking their time to work it, is it possible for the coping mechanism to sound less like my bank teller?

I gotta admit, while I wouldn't be personally injured if it happened, I'd be confused/amused if I walked up to a line that Kevin Standlee was sitting at and he said "May I help you?" I would probably expect something more like "Hey Twi" with whatever the standard patter for that station was attached.

And I can see where if you hear the same thing from the con running staff that you hear from your bank teller (regardless of the reason why) you'd assume you were a customer, not a member.

So if we're looking for a standard to fall back on for those who either need coping mechanism for getting thru the chaos or simply for those who were brought up more formally than many of us on the West Coast (yes, an overgeneralization), perhaps a phrase that could be perceived as More Friendly could be adopted?

Nope, don't know what it is, just an idea. I tend to refer to everyone by their badge name (if i can read it) or call them sir/ma'am if I can't - I thrive on chaos, so that's not my particular issue. But it seems to make sense to find a phrase that can be used as a "stock" phrase for those that are more comfortable doing that that doesn't hit hte buttons of those looking for a little more personal touch than "May I help you?"

[tanngrisnir.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about this at the Paisley Beer Festival last night. Above the casks of ale was a very large banner stating that the festival was run and staffed by volunteers; perhaps a similar banner at cons, perhaps over registration or in the con bar (for UK cons, anyway) might be one idea?

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

I'd be confused/amused if I walked up to a line that Kevin Standlee was sitting at and he said "May I help you?" I would probably expect something more like "Hey Twi" with whatever the standard patter for that station was attached.

I think I'd probably use, "What can I do for you?" if I was in a "service" position (say, Registration or Program Ops Reception or Newsletter or Info Desk).

Or more likely "Can I sell you something today?" if I were behind a bid or convention sales desk. :)

[twilight2000.livejournal.com]

And that one, "Can I sell you something today"?, said in the playful tone of voice that I usually associate with you, would be right in keeping with what I would expect :>.

I tend toward "What can do ya for?" when I'm in a hurry and dealing with large numbers of people. It seems to have the virtue of being both consistent and not so formal, while not being rude or overly familiar.

[johno.livejournal.com]

I've "worked" 2 cretencons.

At the request of the production company which made the show, but under the direction of Adam.

Supposedly the regular CC staff were amazed our crew got t-shirts the first time out.

But then again, not many teams save the Executive Producer's & Supervising Producer's kids from the mob which rushed the stage at the end of the event.

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

Some conventions do it differently. (http://community.livejournal.com/rasff/5429.html)

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

Ayup. We all have our own phrasing...emphasis...and, in my case, goofy expressions when we try to help people. (And what looks formal on a screen won't sound at all formal coming from a mouth, necessarily.)

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

Hrm. That *might* (or might not) be better than "AAAAARGH! She cometh!"

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

In particular, both you and bovril seem not to realize how your "coping mechanisms" put you across to people who just want to help and feel part of the convention.

I haven't heard from those "people," just you.

Perhaps you might survey the people who have worked for and with me, to determine whether or not they have felt unloved, unappreciated, or unwanted. Given that I had the opportunity to lead the finest group of convention runners and volunteers ever amassed for a Worldcon, I did my very, very best to ensure they knew exactly how special they were, and how wonderful was their creation.

The idea that "conrunner language" must either mean they all do it or be an "unfair label" is equally bizarre. Let's see what happens if we make that assumption. How about the term "American English"? Not all Americans speak in that vocabulary or style, so that's an "unfair label."

No, it's a standard. That's why they call it "Standard American English" in the linguistics biz.

How about the "Boston accent" or "Brooklyn accent" or "Jersey accent"? Not all inhabitants of those localities speak like that, in fact probably only a small minority do, so those are "unfair labels."

There is a distinctive Boston accent -- trust me on this. I hear it every day. It is called that because it can be found in people from this area and in no other people.

So, pretty much, you're equating whatever this distinctive "conrunning language" is with an accent found exclusively in one particular group?

How about jokes on Canadians saying "eh?", jokes which both Canadians and non-Canadians make? Not all Canadians speak that way, so that too must be an "unfair label." I've never heard Canadians object to this label; they just smile wryly.

Good for them. I didn't realize you were joking.

[cherylmorgan.livejournal.com]

I've had, "Oh no, not you!"

[querldox.livejournal.com]

It also depends on how stressed *I* am. I recall one point where I had about 5 people all wanting my attention/a decision made at once. In that case, even though I knew all of them, I went "OK, stop. I can only do one of these at once. The order is you, you, you, you, then you. First you, go...[question/situation description]...OK, do this. Second person [points] go...". If someone else had come up at that moment, it wouldn't matter if they were unknown, casual acquaintance, best friend, or SO; my reaction would be "Unless it's something I have to know *this second*, you're up after #5 there...OK, #whatever, continue...".

Personally, I respect my friends enough that I think they should realize normal extra social amenities due to our relationship drop off with respect to how many spare cycles I have to work with at the moment.