Conventions: Members Versus Customers

[kevin_standlee]

The post-Eastercon discussions going on in eastercon and elsewhere include the question of those people who attend conventions viewing themselves solely as "paying customers." I suggested we may need to start printing a fine-print contract on membership materials, the way sporting events and concerts do on their tickets, such as:

THIS IS NOT A TICKET. You are a member of this convention. This event is being organized entirely by volunteers who are working without compensation and who had to pay for their own memberships and travel expenses. While the organizers will make a reasonable effort to present this event in the way it is described in its written materials, they cannot guarantee that all things will happen as planned. By purchasing this membership you explicitly acknowledge that all functions are subject to change or cancellation with or without notice for any reason whatsoever.

This is only a rough first effort, but I think you get the idea. It is a little sad that I can say that I'm quite serious that we may really need to do this or face threats of litigation for "false advertising" and "breech of contract" with attendees.

Comments

[kproche.livejournal.com]

Lord, yes, I can sympathize.

This is a big problem I've observed in the groups organizing events for alternate communities (like smOdyssey's FolsomFringe).

I've come to loathe what I refer to as "consumer kinksters" because they just plain refuse to understand what "volunteer-run" event means.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

I think this may have something to do with the decline of volunteerism in general. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that an increasing number of people have not been acculturated to expect themselves or others to volunteer time, effort, and resources without compensation. Having no expectation of doing any volunteer work themselves, they don't understand anyone else doing volunteer work, and treat everything as they would a ticket to a show, which is a different kind of relationship.

Within the SF community, "gate show" events like Creation et al have encouraged this kind of thinking, and it spreads to people who might find volunteer-run events like ours and assume that they're run on the same model as a gate show. Of course, while in some ways the events are superficially similar, at their philosophical core that are vastly different.

That doesn't mean I go into a convention on which I'm working not wanting to do the best I possibly can. If anything, I probably work harder on it than I do at my paid job, much as I like my work. It just means that I would like to expect that people take this into account when offering criticism and also be more willing to help volunteer themselves. For example, instead of coming into a room that isn't set up yet and complaining about it, saying, "Whoops, the chairs aren't in place yet. Can I help move them where they need to be?"

[saphyre-blue.livejournal.com]

I think this is a very good idea. It reminds the old timers what it is all about and educates the newer folks that we all pay our way and do our share.

Great first draft!!

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

I think something like this, but not in fine print, would be useful for most of our conventions. There are a lot of folks who come to our conventions for the first time who just don't know that we're volunteers. (You probably also had people convinced you were getting huge freebies and perks for chairing a Worldcon. I would have settled for one lackey!)

My suggestion would be for a more positive message: "Welcome to the membership of BlipCon 23! We're the committee for BlipCon -- an all-volunteer group who want to share our love of SF&F and its people with you. We hope you enjoy what we've put together this weekend, and it would be great if you'd like to volunteer to help us make this a really great gathering of fans..."

Then include some seg that tells them what their membership gets them -- plus (cribbing from your note above) the comment that "There will be a lot of different kinds of programming at the convention. Despite our planning, we cannot guarantee that all things will happen..."

I think when we put stuff into a kind of modified legal language, we lose...so if we can serve the same purpose by using warm, welcoming words that provide a sense of inclusion, we win quite a lot.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

Anime Los Angeles (hazelchaz's baby) had a paragraph on the first page of the program book about the nature of volunteer-run conventions.

Some people still didn't get it, like the guy working an artist's table who didn't understand why he had to have a membership to get into the space where he expected to be working.

[tanngrisnir.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about this at the Paisley Beer Festival last night. Above the casks of ale was a very large banner stating that the festival was run and staffed by volunteers; perhaps a similar banner at cons, perhaps over registration or in the con bar (for UK cons, anyway) might be one idea?

[gigica.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with both of you. The large 'n regular fan-run cons (like WorldCon and EasterCon) should push such a notice to the front of the literature, especially the membership receipt.

What I find truly astonishing are the number of fans NOT attending their first WorldCon who complain about schedule changes. I suppose it's an easy way to spot the folks who haven't ever volunteered...

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

What I find truly astonishing are the number of fans NOT attending their first WorldCon who complain about schedule changes. I suppose it's an easy way to spot the folks who haven't ever volunteered...

I don't know that it's even a volunteering thing. I've worked at a lot of conventions, and even run program...so scheduling isn't mysterious or anything.

But you should have been a mouse in my handbag last week at NEMICE (New England Meetings Industry Convention & Exposition) when the one panel I'd really wanted to see (on catastrophe management) was cancelled...an hour before it started. That's always the big problem with one-person panels, of course...when there's a catastrophe, you can't easily manage it. *snicker*

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

You probably also had people convinced you were getting huge freebies and perks for chairing a Worldcon.

Yep. And a sense that full disclosure is good prompts me to say that I did get (a) a good hotel room location (top floor, flanking the boardroom); (b) a slightly-reduced room rate ($99 as I recall; we had about 20 such "organizer" hotel room rates available, which we parceled out as equitably as we though we could); and (c) a couple of thank-you baskets from the hotel and from the San Jose CVB. (If it hadn't been for those baskets of fruit, crackers, and dry sausage, there would have been at least two nights of ConJose during which I wouldn't have had dinner.)

I think something like this, but not in fine print, would be useful for most of our conventions.

I see your point, and agree with most of what you say.

I think when we put stuff into a kind of modified legal language, we lose...

You're right, but for some of the people with whom we're dealing, that's the only thing that will get through to them when they start demanding their "rights" and "entitlements."

[twilight2000.livejournal.com]

You're right, Kevin, the Gate Shows have contributed to this phenomenon. Oddly, the long running amazingly competent volunteers that have been doing it for 20 years may also, unwittingly have contributed to the problem -- in that if I go and see the same faces year after year (and my other exposures are Gate Shows), I'm likely to assume (enter Tony Randall here please) that those "Regulars" are paid like the folks at Creation Cons, et al.

So something like what Deb wrote up front -- and the small print legalese at the back for those who have that issue. That way we invite those that are willing to be invited and CYA the con for those who just want to complain.

Tho I'm sorely tempted to put a sign that says something like:
THIS IS NOT A GATE SHOW. WE DON'T PAY OUR LACKEYS. PLEASE VOLUNTEER BEFORE COMPLAINING.

Not that I would -- it's just a really tempting idea...

On the other hand, making sure Volunteer Sign Up is more obvious is alos a good thing. Put up a Sigh Up at Reg (and make it really visible), put one up in Hospitality, put one up in the Green Room (a good chunk of the "pros" came up the hard way and know the drill) -- Put one up in Gaming -- you get my drift -- the more chances folks have to sign up (or at least see flyers for where to go to sign up), the more folks realize it's part and parcel of what we do as a fan run con.

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

You're right, but for some of the people with whom we're dealing, that's the only thing that will get through to them when they start demanding their "rights" and "entitlements."

That's sadly true. I tire of hearing what people's "rights" are, especially when I've burned myself up making sure that it's a good convention.

On the other hand, we're much better off dealing with the cranky ones piecemeal and making our public statements those that will serve the greater good (and the greater numbers).

Our problem, sometimes, is we got so damned tired and frustrated that we just want to chuck up our arms and say, "Fine, ya bastids, eat flaming laser death...er...nasty contractual language."

[kshandra]

When I get home tonight, I'll post the disclaimer from the back of my most recent Burning Man ticket. There's a lot of stuff that won't likely be useful (the death & dismemberment clause, for one), but it'll at least give you an idea of what else is out there.

I'd love to see the No Spectators mindset catch on in fandom.

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

I'd love to see the No Spectators mindset catch on in fandom.

:-) Yes...and involve even the most shy, at some level. Wish I knew how.

members are customers

[avt-tor.livejournal.com]

And again, you're focusing on the complaints instead of looking at the broader picture. This is clearly a marketing problem, not a legal problem. Whether you call someone a "member", a "customer", or even a "volunteer", there is a contract that occurs at the time of registration. That contract carries almost no legal obligations, and yet if a convention fails to meet the expectation of its (let's call them) members, people will stop coming. That's the real danger the committee needs to consider. In that event, the convention leadership either needs to rethink what they are doing, or else they should step aside and let someone else run things.

I have found it much more productive to discuss people's concerns, instead of leaping to reductio ad absurdem versions of their argument. It is much, much easier to find consensus and mutual understanding if you don't assume that agreement is a necessary result of the discussion. It doesn't help the conversation to accept an unreasonable premise as a starting point for the discussion, even if one might intend to "disprove" their premise with logic of some kind. Listening to the complaint is reasonable; taking legal steps in response is counterproductive, because it avoids dealing with the complaint for what it is.

So the way to deal with "paying customers" is just to explain what the convention is about, and if they don't like that, no one is forcing them to attend. Many conventions have disclaimers like "Guest appearances subject to professional commitments."

I think injecting a ticket-like standard contract form into the registration process is dubious and would introduce unpredictable legal liabilities, even if this contract form explicitly stated "This is not a ticket." (I.e. if you sell someone a ticket-like object, anything written on that contract is only relevant and binding if the organization hosting the event can prove that the other party has been explicitly made aware of unusual terms printed on the contract.) Conversely, anybody who thinks they can get a court to imply a lot of terms into an unwritten contract that the other party hasn't agreed to doesn't have a clear idea of how the law actually works, so their putative lawsuit isn't much of a concern. (I'm not a lawyer, but if I were convention chair, I wouldn't be worrying about such lawsuits.) Dealing with the complaint as a legal issue seems to be a strategy for avoiding any consideration of policy change, and that seems like bad management.

Re: members are customers

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

Dealing with the complaint as a legal issue seems to be a strategy for avoiding any consideration of policy change, and that seems like bad management.

No, I don't believe it is bad management at any level. It is, instead, a response to the ways in which convention attendees have treated with convention organizing committees.

The problem has been that we don't scream "lawsuit" first. Our attendees do. And we must consider questions of legal action, even if it is to decide that we don't wish to deal with things in a lawyerly fashion.

Kevin wasn't really suggesting "taking legal steps" so much as figuring out how to provide fair warning at the outset to new members. I think his point is important, and we don't do enough educating of those who have never been to a convention. (If we did do so, I wouldn't have had someone tell me, at one convention, that he would "have [my] job for this." Woooo. I is so scared. Bite me, monkey boy. I is tenured.)

The other point in Kevin's original post, about the ticket-like thingy, has an important use -- making people read it. People don't read. If something is more than a paragraph, they won't read it carefully. So we need to figure out how to put some basic points together, do so tersely, make them prominent, and still keep an inviting feeling about our conventions.

And damn, if that isn't a hard task.

No Spectators

[whumpdotcom.livejournal.com]

Ah, memories of the conservative who threw a snit fit after WisCon 28.

Re: No Spectators

[bovil.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's funny...

I have to assume
a) they never met krag_carbine there
b) their brand of conservatism isn't compatible with krag_carbine if they did

[melchar.livejournal.com]

I -like- the disclaimer - but it _should_ be printed in 18-point type ON the outside of the packet every convention member is given.

[it's make a good staff Tshirt statement, too.]

[redneckotaku.livejournal.com]

That is true. I am a frequent contributor at cons even Science Fiction cons like Balticon. I am going to be a panelist at Balticon this year (they call them Program Participants) and I am honored. I believe they even recognize them at Opening Ceremonies.

I have been a staffer, attendee and Volunteer for different types of conventions. The cons that seem most like shows to me are Comic Book Conventions. Nobody volunteers to help those events and that disappoints me. It leads to be a mostly one panel room and the show floor events. They leave me the least satisfied as a fanac.

The attitude is in today's generation of fans. I am only 28 and I see many younger fans who would volunteer to help events. I actively have to get people to help run the on-site aspect of Registration for the con I head from dragging friends I meet at other cons.

You never know what you miss of the true fun of a convention until you volunteer and spend until 12 AM trying to stuff 3,500 Registration Bags after working an 8 hour day.

One other thing, I may seem unknown to you all I am the one who had all of the questions about WSFS, Worldcon and 2008 Worldcon bids.

[cherylmorgan.livejournal.com]

I suspect that even if this were printed in 18-point type it would not register with most people. Such things go in one eye and out the other. It is useful only as small print to be trotted out after people have expressed moral indignation or threatened to sue over some minor failing of the convention. I suspect it will prove necessary soon, but actually there are two other disclaimers I'd like to see first.

1. When people sign up for a dealer table: "I understand that I am entering into a commercial arrangement with the convention and this may involve my receiving communications of a commercial nature from the convention."

2. When people ask to be on panel: "I hereby grant the convention the right to use my name in their publications and on their web site, both generally as a panelist and specifically regarding any panels that I agree to be on."

Not mentioning any awkward persons by name, of course.

[dinogrl.livejournal.com]

Ahem... expecting people to :::read::: during the convention? I totally agree with your analysis of "in one eye and out the other." Case in point: (speaking of vending at a convention) I have my prices marked, and credit card signs all over my tables. Frequently I get asked how much something is, or if I take Visa, MC, blah, blah, blah...I attribute it to instant gratification.

[twilight2000.livejournal.com]

Is it possible that it's as much where/how one was raised and with what expectations as anything else?

debgeisler appears to perceive "May I help you?" as being polite when she's up to her a** in alligators -- works for me -- but not, apparently, for all. calimac would rather here (and it appears would more likely say) "Hi, Kevin, glad you made it, here's your reg packet, see you later", but that's breaking the pattern that gets some folks through the hecticness of a big con.

It sounds like folks just coming from a different place and hearing each other's communications differently.

Which doesn't solve the problem, but might give us a handle on where to start the conversation.

If some folks need a coping mechanism to get thru the chaos of a big con and others need the personal touch to feel like it was worth taking their time to work it, is it possible for the coping mechanism to sound less like my bank teller?

I gotta admit, while I wouldn't be personally injured if it happened, I'd be confused/amused if I walked up to a line that Kevin Standlee was sitting at and he said "May I help you?" I would probably expect something more like "Hey Twi" with whatever the standard patter for that station was attached.

And I can see where if you hear the same thing from the con running staff that you hear from your bank teller (regardless of the reason why) you'd assume you were a customer, not a member.

So if we're looking for a standard to fall back on for those who either need coping mechanism for getting thru the chaos or simply for those who were brought up more formally than many of us on the West Coast (yes, an overgeneralization), perhaps a phrase that could be perceived as More Friendly could be adopted?

Nope, don't know what it is, just an idea. I tend to refer to everyone by their badge name (if i can read it) or call them sir/ma'am if I can't - I thrive on chaos, so that's not my particular issue. But it seems to make sense to find a phrase that can be used as a "stock" phrase for those that are more comfortable doing that that doesn't hit hte buttons of those looking for a little more personal touch than "May I help you?"

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

I'd be confused/amused if I walked up to a line that Kevin Standlee was sitting at and he said "May I help you?" I would probably expect something more like "Hey Twi" with whatever the standard patter for that station was attached.

I think I'd probably use, "What can I do for you?" if I was in a "service" position (say, Registration or Program Ops Reception or Newsletter or Info Desk).

Or more likely "Can I sell you something today?" if I were behind a bid or convention sales desk. :)

[querldox.livejournal.com]

It also depends on how stressed *I* am. I recall one point where I had about 5 people all wanting my attention/a decision made at once. In that case, even though I knew all of them, I went "OK, stop. I can only do one of these at once. The order is you, you, you, you, then you. First you, go...[question/situation description]...OK, do this. Second person [points] go...". If someone else had come up at that moment, it wouldn't matter if they were unknown, casual acquaintance, best friend, or SO; my reaction would be "Unless it's something I have to know *this second*, you're up after #5 there...OK, #whatever, continue...".

Personally, I respect my friends enough that I think they should realize normal extra social amenities due to our relationship drop off with respect to how many spare cycles I have to work with at the moment.

[yourbob.livejournal.com]

Whoo boy. Lots to think about here.

How about, rather than all the gobble-dee-gook, simply saying "Program Subject to Change Without Notice" (or "programme" if you speak English).

And an extra stamped word/ribbon/whatever on every worker and panelist badge saying "Volunteer".

Hmmmm...."Program Subject to Change Without Notice" stamps on every member/customer's hands, maybe?

Having done some work on customer service in a mostly volunteer operation, I agree with those above saying it doesn't matter what they're called. They should be treated as customers. So far I always have been.