Different Worldviews

[kevin_standlee]

I find myself wondering what Jonathan McAlmont and Danny O'Dare do to put bread on the table, and musing over whether whatever that is compared to my Day Jobbe is one of the reasons we are talking past each other to the point where I have taken Mary Kay Kare's advice about saying anything else over there. (In short, I am "Just [letting] people be wrong on the Internet…", as he asks.)

My Day Jobbe, which I should be doing right now and will be again in a few minutes, is a computer database programmer. I primarily write and maintain Microsoft Access-based small database application for quick deployment. (Warning: People who snark that Access isn't a "real database" will be considered discussion derailers and treated accordingly. I'm allowed to do that on my home turf, evil person that I am.) Being a programmer gives me a certain view of how I approach the world, process-wise. The character traits that led me into computer solutions engineering possibly are what drew me to an interest in parliamentary law, which is also a large rule-set that a knowledgeable person can "program" to accomplish certain tasks. I find satisfaction when the rules have been followed and everyone has had their say within those rules, even if I don't necessarily get my way. (Besides, if I lose, I often have a way to come back another day when the conditions have changed.) That doesn't necessarily mean I like the result, but if the decision was legal, I have no grounds for attacking on that basis.

(Example: the Mark Protection Committee's decisions in Australia in 2011 2010 were legal within the rules framework, even though their substance infuriated me. I therefore worked within that same framework to overturn the decision legally. I never claimed the decision was illegitimate, only ill-advised, and I'd have a very difficult time having a meaningful discussion with someone who doesn't see the difference.)

Not everyone thinks rules are worthwhile. That doesn't make them inherently evil (c.f. the Dungeons & Dragons "chaotic good" alignment; I'm probably lawful good on that scale, recognizing that paladins and their ilk can be a right pain to be around), but it often makes it nearly impossible for me to have a useful debate with them, on account of we differ so badly on basic assumptions. It's as though I brought a golf club and they have a tennis racquet, and we're standing in the middle of cricket pitch trying to play the game. (Of course, being adverse to rules, they probably aren't interested in any competitive sports anyway, but that's another story.)

Comments

[teroyks.livejournal.com]

" I really wonder how fannish they are. —— Pontificating on the internetz is lazy fandom at best, arrogant fandom at worst."

On the other hand, it's usually not very productive to criticize people for the kind of fandom they enjoy. Conventions are not for everyone, and fandom should be big enough for all kinds of people, to do the activities they like. "Lazy fandom" to me reads like there should be only one kind of "proper", accepted fandom, and that's not the way I like to think of things. In my opinion, claiming to be a fan and somehow communicating with others is quite enough to be accepted as a fellow fan.

And, in my experience, a "lazy fan" (using your term for someone who only connects to other fandom through discussions on the net) can sometimes become an active, participating fan, when treated right. If someone just wants to discuss things on the net, and you do that long enough without demandind anything else, sometimes you happen to be present when they ask if there's something more they could do.

I'm not saying that particular conversation would necessarily have turned out differently if the participation in WSFS part would have been left out, mind you.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

It might. It would not have lasted very long and consisted of like-minded moans of "Oh, everything is terrible, and the horrible Evil SMOFS will never change anything and it's impossible to change anything whatsoever, Woe Is Us."

The regrettable thing is that those of us who do actively engage with the process and who are willing to listen to proposals are going to be put off by all of the wingeing, making changes even less likely.

They're not actually interested in change, I think. As I said to daveon, they're moaning about the weather, with as much chance of actually doing anything about it. My mistake was thinking they wanted something to change. They don't. They want to revel in the joy of being persecuted victims.

[daveon.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on this up to a point. And the point for this was where Jonathon wanted a discussion, when actually what he wanted was to sit at a table at the back of the pub with his friends bitching about how crap everything is and how nothing gets done and he's being oppressed.

I have a real issue with people moaning loudly about the need for change and inviting a discussion and then getting upset when they get it. Fans are hardly unique for displaying this kind of behaviour and I must admit it does feel like an age related thing.

But then, I'm fairly sure there was a panel on 'The Greying of Fandom' on the programme of the first Con I went to 20 years ago, and I suspect that there were similar panels on convention programming 20 years before that. And yet, here we still are.

I don't mind that he doesn't want to do conventions, I would find purely online 'fandom' a little antiseptic myself but you don't get to moan about how convention fandom does things and how weird it is and still get to tell them/us what to do to please you.

[teroyks.livejournal.com]

"Jonathon wanted a discussion, when actually what he wanted was to sit at a table at the back of the pub with his friends bitching about how crap everything is and how nothing gets done and he's being oppressed"

I've known some people like that, and sometimes they can still be coaxed into having a fruitful discussion anyway. But that requires a considerable effort from the other party to check their own ego at the door, to avoid pusing buttons and steering the conversation to topics that they have something more positive to contribute. (Not that I'm claiming to have succeeded in that all that often.)