Worldcons & Entitlement Culture

[kevin_standlee]

As I expected, L.A.con IV will not have convention-provided internet service because the amounts the hotels and convention center want to charge for it are absurdly expensive. I should be, but am not, astonished at the people who have complained that the convention should do it anyway, who have said, "But [fill in local convention name here] held somewhere else has free access; that means you should, to," or assume that the L.A.con IV committee only just now noticed the situation.

Internet access has been one of many, many things the committee has been chasing down. Despite what some people may think, I expect it was not the most important thing. In fact, there were a lot of more important things. I know from my own experience that one of the hard parts about chairing is having to pick between multiple things when you'd like to have them all. You can't always get everything you want. Deal with it, folks! If you need internet access that badly, you can buy it yourself from the hotel or convention center. Would you really be happy to see your membership go up by enough to cover the cost of "free" internet service?

Some things are more important at a Worldcon than free internet service. Holding the Hugo Awards or the Masquerade, for instance.

Comments

[lunarvixen.livejournal.com]

I've seen that hotels have been offereind complimentary highspeed with their rooms.. ever at the Best Western where we are holding CV this year.. and for crying out loud.. if a guest can get free internet with their room.. Why not grant access to an Event being hosted there?? I don't get it...

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Why not grant access to an Event being hosted there??

Because they have a monopoly on the facility and can charge through the nose for access and normally get it from their usual clientele. And the hotels do not offer free access. Less-expensive hotels (like your Best Western, and the Holiday Inn Express in which I often stay) seem to give free access. More expensive hotels, particularly those catering to a lot of expense-account-laden business travelers, are less likely to provide it.

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

Less-expensive hotels (like your Best Western, and the Holiday Inn Express in which I often stay) seem to give free access.

What's interesting is that the second-tier Marriott and Hilton properties do offer free access -- like the Courtyard and Hilton Garden hotels. None of the flagship properties do so.

[jcbemis.livejournal.com]

Actually, I am in the North Raleigh Hilton, this weekend, and they have just renovated and offer free wireless or wired (though the wired seems to be down). They even have wireless bridges to loan (a good thing, since I have been having problems with the wireless in my notebook since my return from Westercon, but the bridge connects me just fine).

[sfrose.livejournal.com]

I suspect that the less-expensive hotels and the second-tier properties are using the free access as lures to help fill their occupancy. It used to be "FREE CABLE TV", the 21st Century version is "FREE WIFI".

[avt-tor.livejournal.com]

And some Best Westerns charge for it. Location, location...

Other Internet Access

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

In response to the deleted post: If you don't mind walking around the corner to Harbor & Katella, there are several shops, one of which (I don't remember if it's coffee or a smoothie place) claims to offer free wi-fi.)

It's perfectly okay to express disappointment. What I don't think is okay is treating internet access as a guaranteed entitlement that the convention should beggar itself and cancel other major functions to provide to its members. I doubt you said that. There are other people (see kremmen) who would prioritize free wi-fi and computer services over something as important as the Hugo Awards Ceremony.

There are degrees here. Some people have said, effectively, "That sucks, but of course you can't afford to pay that much." That's reasonable. Claiming that the committee is incompetent because they "only now noticed" this issue is unreasaonble. See the difference?

Re: Other Internet Access

[debgeisler.livejournal.com]

Claiming that the committee is incompetent because they "only now noticed" this issue is unreasaonble. See the difference?

This is especially true when the committee had been working pretty hard to negotiate lower rates.

Re: Other Internet Access

[marahsk.livejournal.com]

If you don't mind walking around the corner to Harbor & Katella, there are several shops, one of which (I don't remember if it's coffee or a smoothie place) claims to offer free wi-fi.)

You should mention that in the LACon thread, if you haven't already.

Re: Other Internet Access

[yourbob.livejournal.com]

I believe (but I'm not gonna go over there again) somebody said there's free access in the Starbucks in the lobbies of both hotels.

Re: Other Internet Access

[avt-tor.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, I think the ice cream place had wireless. Plus they have ice cream. :)

[palatinate.livejournal.com]

I find this turn of events very ironic in terms of what happened last year at Interaction.

Because N4 had been able to offered general wireless and wired access, we had a number of complaints (mainly pre-con) about the fact that we weren't doing the same - primarily from USians. Many of these focussed on the "general availability of cheap access in the US" and the backwards nature of facilities in the UK.

I think wired lines into the convention centre cost us around £80 each for the week including setup (bear in mind this was an exhibition hall so the lines had to be installed). The Internet lounge area, including hire of the PCs, power, cabling etc, probably came to less than £2000. General Wifi would have been at least 10 times that, if not more - way above our budget.

Given some USians criticism of our approach, it does therefore seem ironic that a major Worldcon the middle of California is suffering exactly the same problem. And it does confirm my suspicion of last year that those people who did complain were not necessarily well informed, but were perhaps extrapolating from a narrower experience at another con (maybe a much smaller one).

[sfrose.livejournal.com]

Because N4 had been able to offered general wireless and wired access

Ironically, it was partly because of the needs of Reg for Internet Access (letting people register/pay at home) that the Internet was installed in the Hynes, but because of the configuration and usage elsewhere that by the end of the con, the access availability at Reg was practically non-existent.

Yet there were still complaints that what we did was not enough.

I was skeptical of the Internet Lounge at Interthingy at first. I thought that there would be long lines, or long waits for sign-up slots. But when I went over to try the first time, there was a short wait and the next time there was a PC immediately available! I thought that it was a good system given the restraints. I'm sorry that you got criticized.

[palatinate.livejournal.com]

I can't remember for sure how many stations we had - I think it may have been 8. Pre-con we would have liked to have gone to 10 or 12, but in practice 8 was pretty much enough. I walked past it quite a few times and there were lines, but never very long, and everyone seemed pretty happy with the service.

[querldox.livejournal.com]

Well, the general lack of lines would be because you signed up for a slot. If the slots for the next, say, hour were all filled, there was no point hanging around waiting since you knew both that it'd be an hour and that you would get that slot without having to be there until then.

8 stations as I recall, and InterThingy did do a good job with 'em.

[(Anonymous)]

There are two separate issues here. From a Worldcon point of view, the problem is convention centers. They've always screwed people wherever they can, and the only real surprise is that they've taken so long to wake up to the Internet opportunity. Because Worldcons need conventions centers, they will find it hard to provide Internet lounges in the convention centers from now on. (Wasn't ConJose's in the Fairmont?) The US and UK are equally affected by this.

The other issue is hotels. As has been pointed out, mid-range and cheap hotels in the US often have free wi-fi. If they don't it is very cheap (around $10/day). Many major US conventions take place in hotels that have free Internet access (Wiscon, to name but one). The top flight hotels that Worldcons use may not have free access, but there are often cheaper hotels nearby that do (there are in Anaheim). In contrast the daily rate for Internet access in UK hotels is very high, and cheaper hotels may not have access at all. (Some Quality Inns still plumb their phone lines into the wall instead of using jacks, which means you need a tool kit even to get dial-up. I've also stayed in UK hotels that deliberately block access to ISP phone numbers.)

So some of the flak we got was a result of historical accident, and some of it was justified. But as the guys in LA are finding out, much of the flak comes because, given the opportunity, some fans will complain about anything. See the title of Kevin's post.

[shsilver.livejournal.com]

I've always thought internet lounges at cons were a little strange. After all, isn't the point of being at the con (whether Worldcon or PoDunKon, to, you know, attend the convention and perhaps talk to other fans? Kind of feel the same way about computer gaming.

[redneckotaku.livejournal.com]

I go to a much bigger convention than this and there is no internet lounge or Wi-Fi Access. It is Otakon in Baltimore. Baltimore also has a free Wi-Fi network that you can get from outside of the building. People don't think the Internet is the biggest thing to their con going experience. I go to conventions to meet people and attend the convention, not livejournal all day.

[sfrose.livejournal.com]

There are some people who need the Internet access to stay in touch with relatives/friends/work* at home. But that might be a 15-60 minutes a day thing. Not spend the entire con there. Internet Lounges may always look full, but it is usually not the same people there, but others rotating in and out.

* At Chicon 2000, my boss was worried that I would be away for a week. What if something went wrong? I asked for a loaner laptop and Internet access and I would check in every day. I was given a Mac and a VPN with an 800 number. Yes, it was dialup, and yes I needed to watch the the time so that I didn't spend more than the hour (at which point the Hyatt's cost for 800 calls skyrocketed) but it met her needs.

BTW, it was at the Internet lounge at ConJose that the Australia in 2010 website was created.

[sfrose.livejournal.com]

Would you really be happy to see your membership go up by enough to cover the cost of "free" internet service?

Well, $31,000 for WiFi access (plus a bit more to rent a few PCs for those who are laptopless) would only come to about $6 per member for a 5000 person con. Put in those terms I wouldn't mind paying another $6 for the access (that's less than a day at either hotel), but that way does lie madness.

Not using your extreme points of Hugos or Masquerade, but I also feel that it is important to subsidize childcare or have a staff/gopher lounge to feed volunteers (other areas that not every convention member may be using.) But those are already in the budget and we are not allocating each members membership money for each additional "add-on."

[marahsk.livejournal.com]

But looked at another way, volunteers *do* benefit everyone at the con, so keeping them fed and healthy does indirectly benefit everyone. Plus it's an incentive to get people to volunteer, and having more volunteers benefits everyone.

But those are already in the budget and we are not allocating each members membership money for each additional "add-on."

Sure we are, we're just doing it indirectly.

I think that the subset of people who absolutely *must* be able to keep in touch, but who can't afford their own Internet access/don't have a laptop/don't have any friends with a laptop they they borrow is smaller than the number of people who would benefit from spending $31,000 some other way.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

I think that the subset of people who absolutely *must* be able to keep in touch, but who can't afford their own Internet access/don't have a laptop/don't have any friends with a laptop they they borrow is smaller than the number of people who would benefit from spending $31,000 some other way.

Aha! Yes! You get it.

I don't mean to say that not everyone does get it. But as you can see from reading that thread over there, not everyone does.

[marahsk.livejournal.com]

I think most people do get it, but they aren't the ones posting.

There have been Worldcons at which I *had* to be connected (just long enough to send or read something), but I saw *my* need as *my* problem, not the convention's. I either sucked it up and paid for the connection, or begged the use of a friend's laptop.

[sfrose.livejournal.com]

Lots of things can be justified if there is the desire and priority. The Internet access at N4 was installed because there were enough convention use to make the cost a worthwhile expense (Registration, Press Office, Information, etc.) At that point the additional cost to provide the WiFi network and stations to members was reasonable.

But those are already in the budget and we are not allocating each members membership money for each additional "add-on."

Sure we are, we're just doing it indirectly.

Yes, I know that, but we generally don't take the budget and break down each line item by 5000 to allocate each member's costs. Kevin's question was "Would you really be happy to see your membership go up by enough to cover the cost of "free" internet service?"

The $31,000 price tag is quoted a lot. But the Press Release also mentioned a smaller wired setup for $5,000. Most of the people whinging about the lack of Internet access would also be willing to pay an extra $1 rather than none at all. The unfortunate thing is if LAcon IV decided on the reduced wired lounge, those same people would be whinging about the level of service.

[marahsk.livejournal.com]

we generally don't take the budget and break down each line item by 5000 to allocate each member's costs.

Not that precisely, no, but in a roundabout way, that's what's meant by "$31,000 is too expensive." We kind of do a ballpark thing in our heads. I've also seen people discussing how much $ per member to allocate to con suite, or ribbons.

Kevin's question was "Would you really be happy to see your membership go up by enough to cover the cost of "free" internet service?"

Kevin's question doesn't quite work, because it's too late to raise membership fees for people who've already bought them.

It's a given that no matter what is done (or not done), someone will complain about it. The only question is how many people have to care (and to what extent) before it's something that the convention should provide at the expense of something else that other people want. But of course you know that.

I think $5000 for a small wired lounge sounds like a good idea, but I know nothing about the factors that went into their decision, so I am loath to second guess.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

The "how many dollars per member" is a difficult number to calculate, and a meaningless one at that; it depends entirely on what rate the member got. A $5 hike for an at-the-door member might just have meant a $2 hike for a voter converting at the early-bird rate.

I find the "where do my membership dollars go?" pie chart (major budget areas' percentages) to be an excellent tool when somebody asks why membership costs so much, or why the convention isn't spending money on something they're obsessed with. It's still a bit of voodoo, but it's more meaningful. When the tech budget is a huge wedge, but it's pointed out that nearly 2/3 of the convention will be watching the masquerade and the hugos, it makes sense. When the facilities cost is a huge wedge, and people see how well the space is being used (assuming it's not being used badly) they get it.

The whiners and crackpots will still complain. The fans who are first seeing what a con budget is like will counteract the crackpots to some extent.