When Did Oregon Secede?

[kevin_standlee]

I am very unhappy with Circuit City. I bought a computer game from them last week in Salem, but couldn't get it to run on either of my computers without it generating warning messages that "your video driver is out of date." (I checked, and both of the Dell Inspiron 600m machines have the latest Radeon 9000 drivers from Dell's support site.) This, along with other ways in which the game behaves when I try to install it, make me think that the game is under-specified; that is, the system requirements on the box are insufficient, and it really needs a more powerful machine than I have, probably a gaming-optimized powerhouse. Had I known this up front, of course I would not have bought the software.

On Monday afternoon, I took the software back to Circuit City to ask for a refund (ideally) or credit (which at least I could spend on something that would actually run on my computer). The clerk called her supervisor; the supervisor informed me that "Oregon Copyright Law forbids us from exchanging software for anything but another copy of the same software if the box is opened."

Excuse me? Oregon Copyright Law? Since when did Oregon withdraw from the USA and set up its own copyright laws? I told her, "There's no such thing as Oregon Copyright Law."

She insisted that there was. I became angry, and said, "So there's nothing you can do. Fine! Give me back my useless software then!" and snatched the box (and receipt) out of the hands of the startled clerk, who had been standing there while her supervisor (in my opinion) lied to me.

As I turned to storm out of the store, the supervisor called out, "Sir! You're not welcome in this store again!"

I turned around, looked daggers in her face, and said, "I don't think you have to worry about me spending any money in this store again."

She turned to the clerk and said, "Call Security!"

I left the store, so I don't know what happened after that. If they did summon security guards, they didn't follow me. Okay, so maybe I shouldn't have lost my temper, but they shouldn't have lied to me, either. It's not that they refused to make good on this purchase that angered me. The fine print buried deep in their refund policy (which I studied later) says that they won't exchange opened software. Had she simply pointed this out to me, I would have been disappointed, but would have just grumbled and taken it (and complained to the game's publisher). But when someone appears to be making up new laws out of their own imagination to justify their actions, then I get angry, as I don't like being lied to. I'm not sure this distinction is clear enough.

I've written to Circuit City through their web site to complain about this. I've searched the Oregon Revised Statutes, and can find no reference to an "Oregon Copyright Law," and Google searches find nothing useful on the subject of a specific set of Oregon-only copyright statutes. I've told Circuit City that I apologize for startling the young clerk, who knew nothing, but challenged them to cite this "Oregon Copyright Law" that I think the supervisor made up (or else her management made up and told her; the fault is the same anyway).

On the other hand, I don't even know if the message got through. Circuit City's web site, when I submitted the message, closed the form and took me back to their main web page without a confirmation and without sending me a copy of my own e-mail.

Edits, 13:07 and 13:34: Corrected typos noted in comments.

Edit, 17:05: Minor change to add when I went to the store. Re-reading it, I realized that if you read my journal entries sequentially, you might wonder how I returned an item in Oregon when I had said on Tuesday morning that I'd returned to California.

Comments

[kproche.livejournal.com]

This is one of those occasions when paper correspondence, cc'd to the local consumer protection agency, is a more effective tool. "Email gets lost"

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

It's certainly not worth the time and effort for such a trivial revenge -- but I wonder how many times you could exchange for an unopened package of the same game before they caught on?

Computer games tend to be sold on unacceptable terms; which is by no means the only reason I don't buy them, but does help hold me back any time I feel any slight temptation.

[daveon.livejournal.com]

In the UK you'd have statutory rights which would exist regardless of the retailer. I don't know about the US.

I'd send it back to the manufacturer direct and outline what happened to them. At least it would spread the pain.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

I do intend to complain to the publisher. The specific issue may be very complicated, as ATI says there is a newer Radeon 9000 driver, but it won't install on either machine, possibly due to a conflict between ATI/Radeon and Dell.

Mind you, I can get the software to (barely) start up on one of the machines, but with that warning message, I'm leery of actually using it, lest it go all pear-shaped on me in mid-game.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

Video card manufacturers don't really manufacture the cards anymore. At least not ATI or nVidia. They manufacture chipsets that other companies use to manufacture cards.

In the case of desktop video cards, the variation between manufacturer's cards (like say 3 different manufacturers' versions of an ATI Radeon 9000) isn't relevant to the video driver. It's mostly packaging questions: How big is the heat sink or the fan? How many video ports are on the card? Which interfaces are supported?

In the case of laptops, a great deal more customization takes place. Dell uses different video mirroring software than IBM, and different TV output modes. The ATI (or nVidia) driver is useless, as it doesn't include the Dell, IBM, Gateway, Toshiba (blah blah blah) feature set.

I'm dissapointed, but not terribly surprised, that the software can't tell that you've got the latest driver for your display adapter (because, while there's a new ATI driver, it's not compatible with the Dell ATI adapter). That's the thing to complain to the publisher about.

[solarbird]

"Was that all th' Woolworths, or just th' one?"

Circuit City leaves no green donkey dick unsatisfied within a three-state radius of any store. Assholes.

[howeird]

There's definitely no such thing as Oregon Copyright Law, but I don't know of any retailer which accepts returns on opened software. If software doesn't work on your machine, the usual remedy is from the software manufacturer, not the retailer. Software manufacturers routinely take advantage of the fact that it will be 2-3 months between the time they ship product to the time you buy it, and make fixes to known issues during that gap, usually available for free download on their web site, or via their support pages.

As for the supervisor's extraordinarily stupid fabrication, there's a fine, fine line between a fairy tale and a lie.

And just because I cannot resist mocking the afflicted, does one use a chisel and hammer to revise a statue?

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Ouch! Fixed.

I had a similar under-specfied software problem with software puchased from Fry's. I had low hopes, but they agreed to exchange it for store credit, although the supervisor made it clear to me that this was against general policy and could not be relied upon as a precedent. It still made me somewhat better disposed toward Fry's.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

By the way, Oregon might secede, but I'm not sure if it could seceed.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Groan. I could have sworn I looked that up, but maybe I then managed to mis-type it after doing so.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's not the inability to fix the problem: it's the not-caring, and the lies, and the threatening to call security on somebody who's already on his way out.

It's also the not explaining the policy when you buy the thing in the first place.

I once was not allowed to mail a package in a manner I'd often done at another post office. The clerk said, "Go back to that other post office, then." (Not easy, as it was in another state.) I said, "That was in the United States of America. What country is this?" No answer, of course.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Thank you! You understand the source of my frustration.

I guess they could say that they'd explained the policy, because it is buried in the fine print of the returns policy, although the way I read it was somewhat ambiguous.

Regarding the post office, I've sometimes been able to beat them at their own game, but only because (a) I'm persistant at researching the International Mail Manual and (b) I've never forgotten the advice my grandmother, who was the (note singular; it's deliberate) clerk in the Challenge, California post office: "When in doubt, quote chapter and verse from the Manual. Nobody ever got fired for following the Manual." But it's frustrating when you are faced with situations like you describe, because most of the time they have you at a disadvantage.

When I did ISAL mailings for ConJose, I had to teach the San Jose post office how to accept and process them. This only worked because I'd done a whole lot of homework and printed out copies of the relevant sections of the IMM. Otherwise, they might have bounced me out of there as "too difficult." They asked if I would be willing to come and teach a class on the subject, but I did not have the time.

[dsmoen.livejournal.com]

A great many return policies are ambiguous, but she was way out of line. Whether you were or not is really irrelevant.

Also be sure to write your credit card company and contest the charge if it's not promptly credited back. Be sure to include the whole tirade, and send a copy to the Circus City home offices.

But Kevin Roche is right: written correspondence is best.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to contest the credit card charge. Their refunds policy quite plausibly refuses software returns when the package has been opened, so it's not worth my while to go through the protest when I'm pretty sure it will be denied. (I've done CC protests before, most recently when Nippon 2007's travel agent wouldn't budge on returning my desposit, but only when I think my case is strong; in this one, I think that I'm morally right but would be found legally and technically wrong.) I will instead write to the publisher and complain to them.

[garyomaha.livejournal.com]

Unbelievable. Your experience sounds like some bad TV drama. "Call security!" indeed -- I doubt that Circuit City **has** "security".

Good luck to you on this continuing story. Yes, I agree with the others -- send written correspondence. How about sending copies to your local TV investigative reporting team?

This makes me pleased that CC closed their Omaha store quite some time ago. I don't think I ever purchased anything there, but it was nice eye candy. And those poseurs set up shop right across from Nebraska Furniture Mart!

[danjite.livejournal.com]

Of course they have security, and likely at least two such junior SS per shift.

As a matter ofpolicy at most electronics retailers, anyone who enters the store is considered a potential thief or other security risk. Everyone. Employees, managers, customers.

[tkunsman.livejournal.com]

I think I agree with others here - send a written or on-line form complaint via the Better Business Bureau (www.bbb.org) against that specific Circuit City.

The manager handled that wrong - sure you might have been angry, and maybe even loud - but to call "security"? I would have been tempted to stay, and then bring out my cell phone to call the police to help.

sounds familiar

[yourbob.livejournal.com]

I'm still waiting for my explanation from Best Buy. I haven't done business with Circuit City in about 15 years after similar experience with idiocy.

Sigh. Trying to quote law instead of store policy is usually a flag of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. It's just below quoting scripture for retail decisions in my book. The problem for them is, they never know when they're talking to a lawyer (or a preacher).

[danjite.livejournal.com]

Thanks for reminding me of one of the things I hate, deeply loathe, about USistan: The customer is a hinderance to the operation of the business.

Here in the real world, apolgies would be proffered and an acceptable result for the customer would have been worked out, lest the retailer lose face because of a failure of the manufacturer,

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

And Cheryl says that this is the sort of customer-hostile attitude I should expect to see all of the time in the UK. Yet it was the very fact that I found it unusual here that helped set me off. Cheryl has been amazed at how good customer service is in the USA by comparison to the UK. I was expecting Fry's to similarly tell me "tough luck," and was astonished that they agreed to try and make-good on what is really the manufacturer's failure to properly spec their product.

Lisa was also disgusted with Circuit City. While I queued for the returns desk, she looked at digital cameras. She told me later that the salesman managed to "un-sell" two customers who were on the point of buying cameras. And Lisa knows a bit about customer service, having worked in a Radio Shack store in New Mexico -- one of the older Radio Shack "dealer" stores where the staff actually knew something about electronics -- many years ago. While she's not too excited about the flood of badly-made Chinese junk she says is flooding US markets simply because it's cheap, she's capable of selling something if she believes in it.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

Cheryl is right: US customer service is generally far better than British. The Brits won't argue with you; they just don't care. There really is no limit to the size of the s--t that they don't give.

But for that reason, and because of the reserved quality of the British national character, meeting their intransigence by getting visibly angry can sometimes work wonders.

"Oregan copyright law" ruled unconstitutional by me

[(Anonymous)]

Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution makes it clear that Copyright is a federal matter - "The Congress shall have Power... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries" So much for an Oregan copyright law...

As you say, simply substituting "Store policy" for "Oregan copyright law" would have been more technically correct and less (even if still somewhat) irritating.

[dinogrl.livejournal.com]

When Dave and I stayed in the city a few weeks ago, and the valet parking returned our car damaged, they accepted no apology, nor any offer to fix it, because we didn't discover that the door of his S2000 was held open for us was damaged until after getting home. "Not our problem".
Sigh.