Yep, We Need Fewer of Me, All Right

[kevin_standlee]

I have learned that I'm an Abusive Hugo Nazi and that the world would be a better place without people like me.

It is any wonder that even I sometimes get fed up with fandom? Yep, without people like me and the hundreds of other people who knock themselves out running things, she wouldn't have any conventions to go so, nor any Hugo Awards to complain about for that matter.

And remember, I'm one of those people who thinks that we do charge too much for Hugo voting rights, and would be happier to have the cost closer to $20 than $50! I wonder what she would make of the people who like the system exactly the way it is right now and don't see anything negative about it at all?

Maybe I should ask Chaz for some HUGO NAZI ribbons?

Comments

[dancingguy.livejournal.com]

Silly, silly, man. She didn't want to accomplish anything, she just wanted to have a bitch fest. What part of "Of course I am saying that. It's my blog. It is the place where I can say I want EVERYTHING to suit my preferences" didn't tell you that she had no goal beyond bitching and whining?

:-)

[tammylc.livejournal.com]

Kevin, I definitely appreciate everything you do, and understand your desire to educate people about the issues involved. But, that said, I do think you were rather overbearing with that particular poster. It became clear pretty quickly that she was not going to get it and did not want to get it, and given that, I'm not at all surprised that she felt badgered given the length and breadth of comments on the subject. I understand your intention, I really do, but I'm just not sure it was a battle well chosen...

[redneckotaku.livejournal.com]

There are times when you lose the battle of fandom. If you hit someone who is acting like a brick wall, you move on.

[jcfiala.livejournal.com]

Um, yeah. You did come on a little strong there, really. Sometimes, I think, you might need to cut back early on when the argument isn't going anywhere.

[eackerman.livejournal.com]

I've always liked your explanation that you're not paying to vote--you're buying an annual membership in WSFS, and that includes voting privileges.

I'm sorry some people don't appreciate it, but the work done by the Hugo committee is invaluable to the rest of us.

Hmm

[lsanderson.livejournal.com]

When you see strawmen with targets on 'em posted by whinny fans, ittsa trap. Just walk away.

[amysisson.livejournal.com]

Agreed. That is a great explanation, and I too appreciate the work y'all are doing. (Sorry about the y'all -- I've been living in Texas a few years now. Apparently it can't be helped.)

[tammylc.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I thought your very first comment to her was great and is a really valuable framing of the situation. When she immediately rejected the premise, I knew the ensuing conversation wasn't going to be pretty.

[twilight2000.livejournal.com]

What you do is valuable -- that some folks will insist on refusing to understand is just a part of life.

What's most amusing is that if the Hugo Committee wanted to be *real* punks, they could simply require "attending memberships," not tell anyone and keep it REALLY secret. Silly Woman.

As for those Hugo Nazi Ribbons? I suspect they'd be so popular there'd be a black market for them -- maybe you could fund the *next* Hugos with the proceeds?

Other ribbons that would be Hugely Popular (and folks would line up to wear 'em):
Hugo Secret Police
Secret Masters of Fandom, Hugo Division
Section 31, Hugo Division
Thought Police, Hugo Division
Stargate Command, Hugo Division
(ok -- you get my drift) :>

[yourbob.livejournal.com]

I'll take one of each.

Now wouldn't THAT make a fun ribbon of ribbons!

Re: Hmm

[kshandra]

...and I am reminded, as I occasionally am, of the late Carl J. Lydick: "Remember, if you throw a strawman into a heated argument, flames will inevitably result."

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

You're right. Really I shouldn't even be trying. Most people don't want to know, don't care, and simply want everything to be done exactly the way they want. Ideally, the Hugo Awards should have an electorate of one, that one person being the person complaining.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I'll be interested in seeing if she has any reaction other than OMG SCARY HUGO NAZI GEEKS ARE COMING TO GET ME. I've had it pointed out to me privately that this is standard victim tactics: Express a controversial opinion, and then when someone tries to call you on it, claim that you are victim and that the other person is the oppressor.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I appreciate the kind words. You know, I do understand people saying that they personally don't perceive sufficient value in a WSFS membership. What I don't understand that much is those people generalizing that because they personally don't see the value, then the entire process is unfaaaaaaair. When I learned how the system worked, I didn't sit down and complain about how horribly unfair it was and how they should change it to suit me; I got involved and did what I could to change things to be the way I wanted them to be. Sometimes I even got what I wanted.

But maybe that's because I don't enjoy being a victim.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

"Nazi" is the ping word here. Nazis persecuted people for status offenses, in their case racial heritage (among other things). But there is no movement to keep Hugo voting rights to the SFnal equivalent of Aryans. Anybody can vote, if they sign up. They don't have to pass a test (though I've seen it only semi-jokingly suggested that a test should be administered to prospective fans).

[jeff-morris.livejournal.com]

Maybe I should ask Chaz for some HUGO NAZI ribbons?

A swastika with rocketship intersecting it?

Hi Kevin

[muneraven.livejournal.com]

Kevin, your rhetoric on my blog yesterday turned from informative, which I truly appreciated, to uncomfortable as you kept on with your need to be RIGHT. But I didn't believe I was wrong and said so. You kept after me. I took refuge in humor, and I think you did not get my jokes at all (that might be my failure or it might be your's or both). Nonetheless, by dinnertime you made me feel attacked and bullied, demanding quick answers to your questions about my credentials for even having an opinion again and again. You made me really uncomfortable. Is that what you wanted?

Is it more important to be right than it is to be decent and respectful to someone?

Now you have linked to my blog here, and I have had to erase several really vile comments this morning telling me what a rotten person I am. I did NOT link to your LJ in my angry post, Kevin, because I didn't want my friends to come here and harrass you. Note that they have not come here to say mean things about you. I wouldn't want that.

By the way, the "Hugo nazi" comment is a reference to the "soup nazi" on the "Seinfeld" show. I probably should have used quote marks or something.

But I was serious about the abusive part. I do think it is bullying to go to a stranger's blog and question her credentials to state a casual opinion about something.

And I think it is abusive to send your friends to my blog to name-call.

Re: Hi Kevin

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Nonetheless, by dinnertime you made me feel attacked and bullied, demanding quick answers to your questions about my credentials for even having an opinion again and again. You made me really uncomfortable. Is that what you wanted?

Only you can choose to feel like a victim.

Is it more important to be right than it is to be decent and respectful to someone?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that being "decent and respectful" meant "agreeing categorically about how incredibly unfair it is that we don't do things the way you want them done." I suppose I should be happy that you consider the Hugo Awards to be sufficiently important to concern yourself with them, but what it really seems to mean is that you think that it's so terribly unfaaaaair that you should have to pay to join a club in order to help decide what awards that club wants to present.

Remember, I'm someone who thinks we do actually charge too much for memberships. And when I express that opinion among conrunners, I'm the one getting criticized for it. It's going on elsewhere right now, but the list isn't like LiveJournal. You think I'm bad? You should read some of the other comments about what a bad idea introducing a $20 Hugo-voting-only membership would be. I'm the person who was working relatively quietly on the inside trying to persuade a Worldcon to offer such memberships, but that's unlikely now because they know how much static they'll get from the very people whose goodwill they need to put on their convention.

And then you told me to go away and called me a Nazi and someone who should be removed from the world. And you call me disrespectful?

Now you have linked to my blog here, and I have had to erase several really vile comments this morning telling me what a rotten person I am.

I saw the comments. You mis-spelled "comments that disagreed with me." Notice that I'm not deleting your comment here, even though you don't agree with me. Note that I didn't delete the comments of some of the people elsewhere in this thread, even when they told me I probably came on too strong. (And they are right. I should have let the whole thing drop. I appreciate them telling me this even though it doesn't make me very happy.)

I did NOT link to your LJ in my angry post, Kevin, because I didn't want my friends to come here and harrass you. Note that they have not come here to say mean things about you. I wouldn't want that.

I don't care if you link to my LiveJournal; feel free to do so. If I didn't want people reading what I wrote, I wouldn't write it. If I wanted to limit its distribution, I'd friends-lock it. I've never had to ban someone (spammers excepted), nor tell people to "go away." My only restriction is that I screen anonymous posts and usually won't clear them if they're unsigned.

And I think it is abusive to send your friends to my blog to name-call.

I did not "send my friends to name-call." You told me to go away and stop answering. I did so, after answering the questions you asked of me, and then I vented about it on my LiveJournal. Oh, are you saying that you're allowed to vent about things that annoy you in your LJ but other people aren't?

[dancingguy.livejournal.com]

Hi muneraven,

You're wrong. (And, you're classless. Nice job deleting my comment on your site rather than responding to it. Oh, and Kevin didn't "send me to name-call." I went over, looked around, and then commented on your behavior. Not on you, on your behavior. Here's another language lesson: me saying "All you want to do is bitch, moan, and whine" is not me calling you a bitch, it is me pointing out that you are merely complaining about things, without evincing any desire to actually fix them.)

The problem wasn't Kevin's "need to be right", the problem was Kevin wanted to have a conversation with someone who could become an ally in the effort to fix a problem, and all you wanted to do was have a rant.

Here is where things went irredeemably wrong "Of course I am saying that. It's my blog. It is the place where I can say I want EVERYTHING to suit my preferences."

It's not possible to have a conversation with someone who's saying that. "Conversation" implies an exchange between two (or more) people, each of who's opinions and concerns are treated as having value. What you said roughly translates to "it's all about me. Everyone else can screw off."

Now, at that point, Kevin should have said "irrational whiny bitch, I'm out of here" (see, that would be me "name calling"). He didn't. Instead, he let himself be dragged down to your level.

It's a classic man - woman problem. Woman just wants to vent, man hears it and wants to "problem solve". Ah, well.

Re: Hi Kevin

[muneraven.livejournal.com]

"Only you can choose to feel like a victim."

So when a woman, or anyone, tells you that you are making her uncomfortable and she feels you are bullying her, it is her fault because she is choosing to feel like a victim.

Ah.

Well, I don't have anything else to say to you, Kevin. You've made yourself really clear.

I'd very much appreciate it if you would steer clear of my blog from now on and I will do the same for you. And I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't link to my blog anymore.

Thanks.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

You replied to the top-level post, not to her reply, so she may not see it. But it hardly matters. We're men, so we're automatically wrong, and she's a victim, so she's automatically right. Argument has nothing to do with it.

You may well have a point about the problem-solver versus venting problem, though. It's not at all easy for me to hear about problems without wanting to try and do something about them, and even when intellectually I know the person is just trying to vent their spleen, it raises my blood pressure to not be able to Do Something.

Re: Hi Kevin

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

So when a woman, or anyone, tells you that you are making her uncomfortable and she feels you are bullying her, it is her fault because she is choosing to feel like a victim.

So when any person, regardless of gender, calls you an abusive Nazi, that person is automatically right and the person being called -- if he's a man -- is automatically wrong?

You want to know something: I hadn't bothered looking at your profile, and I don't know you personally. It took quite a while in our exchange yesterday before I even noticed your gender. This is LiveJournal! Lots of people hide behind anonymous user names and icons. I don't always go look at profiles, and lots of people don't say much in their profiles anyway, or they lie. I did not and do not care what your gender is. I would have said the same things to anyone. Okay, I probably came on too strong, but that's because people told me when I was coming up, "If you want to change things, do it yourself," and I said, "Okay," and did it. I didn't sit back and whine about the unfairness of it all.

I'm sorry, truly sorry, that I've put you off from attending Worldcons. I wouldn't have devoted a really significant chunk of the last twenty years of my life to them if I wanted to drive people away from them. I can, however, tell you that if you should happen to change your mind, you will find hundreds or even thousands of interesting people with a shared interest in the genre, none of whom are me. If you truly are a fan of SF/fantasy literature, you will find something -- many things, actually -- that you will enjoy, without ever having to deal with Evil Abusive Hugo Nazi Men. For you, the Secret Master of Fandom who actually do the work to make the conventions happen can remain secret.

[trinsf.livejournal.com]

I'm nhot really happy with her references to abuse, either.

[trinsf.livejournal.com]

I've responded, and I'm a woman. I'm also more steeped in the rhetoric she's trying to use than she is; I'm higher up the feminist food chain, so to speak. Not that it really matters.

You know, just keep being who you are being. I've been abused, I've known abusers, and manipulators, and all sorts of Bad Men, and you are delightfully, refreshingly not one of them. You're one of the Good Guys.

Re: Hi Kevin

[trinsf.livejournal.com]

No. Wrong. Being a woman does not give you the right to call any man who disagrees with you an abuser. If you do so, you're engaging in sexism, and you're negating the experiences of women who really *have* been abused.

Your post on this matter was publicly available. If you don't want debate and criticism of your views, make the post friends-only. Otherwise, you don't get to complain if others comment on your public posts. And you *certainly* don't have any justification for calling people who disagree with you "abusers".

[trinsf.livejournal.com]

I'd like to suggest that "HUGO NAZI" ribbons would be tacky and inappropriate, as inappropriate as the OP's use of the term. I'd also like to say that you're in the right now, but if you keep going on about women, I'm gonna have to thwap you all. :-) The OP is out of line to try and make this about male/female relations. Don't fall into her trap by parsing the situation the same way, please.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Thank you! That really does make me feel better. I'll try to dial it back a little bit.

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Hm, well, you do have some good points there. I guess I over-reacted because I felt I was being defined into a untenable position, and that's very frustrating.

Upon further review, the order for ribbons (from me, at least) is on indefinite hold.

Re: Hi Kevin

[cherylmmorgan.livejournal.com]

Thanks. This sort of thing really annoys me as well. There is plenty of need for Feminism in the world still. Just because things happen to be better for us in the US or UK doesn't mean that they are better for women anyway. And all you have to do is look at the rape conviction rates to see what the battle isn't won. But I see far too much these days of women setting out to attack people and then yelling "abuse" as soon as someone dares to counter them. The only thing that achieves is to give men another excuse to condemn us as "irrational".

[dancingguy.livejournal.com]

Nope, I was one of the comments she deleted on her blog. I was a big meanie. I said things like this: "Conversations start from the perspective that other people matter, too. Your comments in the thread showed a complete disregard for the opinions and desires of anyone but yourself."

Problem solving v. venting. Like a said, you're a guy. We want to fix it, not just vent about it. In the last decade or so I've gotten much better about recognizing the signs of when that's happening. Online, I'll just go away. In person, it's a bit more challenging. :-)

Godwin's Law

[pip-r-lagenta.livejournal.com]

Godwin's Law applied, in this case, until she re-edited her blog to replace "Nazi" with "Dude". Now, there's no getting around it: you're totally screwed. Sorry, man. You did a lot of good work in your day, but that's all over now. Can I have your stereo?

Re: Godwin's Law

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

*chuckle* Nah, I only own half of it; you'd have to buy out Cheryl's half first.

Thanks.

[caindog.livejournal.com]

Congratulations on your promotion to "Main Hugo Dude", Kevin! I mean, why else would the original blog post have been edited yet again to change your "Abusive Hugo (alleged-Seinfeld-reference)" nickname to "Main Hugo Dude" unless the Galactic Council had finally come through with that promotion?

[lindadee.livejournal.com]

You keep saying that we're charging for Hugo voting rights, but I don't see it as that. We are paying to attending (or support) a convention with which voting rights are associated. In fact, the price goes up closer to the convention, and costs the most after voting rights (except site selection) have expired. So it can't be the cost of voting.

Linda

[elaine-brennan.livejournal.com]

I just think that sometimes saying, "Thanks for your opinion. This is a topic I feel very strongly about -- and my language reflects that. Please let me know if you'd like additional information or to continue the conversation in private conversation." is better than continuing to talk when somebody's pretty clearly no longer actually engaging with the issues.

Hugo Geek

[hazelchaz]

Annoying Hugo Geek might be less neeedlessly inflammatory. (I see others have already alluded to Godwin.)

And it would allow for the companion ribbon Annoyed Hugo Geek.

Re: Hugo Geek

[hazelchaz]

Mind you, Hugo Dude sounds like it could almost be an alias. They're not named after Mr. Gernsback, they're named after Mr. Dude...

Re: Hugo Geek

[kshandra]

I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Oh, wait, I already do.

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

My father was in Coventry when the Nazis leveled it. He had nightmares until the day he died about that night.

My grandfathers both saw firsthand the death camps.

And she called you a Nazi?

Kevin, you are one of the people who is "real" to me. What you have done for fandom deserves praise and a fan guest of honor slot at a worldcon. This bitch is nothing and no one.

Re: Godwin's Law

[gridlore.livejournal.com]

I'm cool with Mono.

Re: Hi Kevin

[lunarpenumbra.livejournal.com]

Speaking on a psychological level... as I've learned from people going through the process as well as first hand.

When it comes to feelings and other such things not in the physical realm.. we choose how we feel. No one can make us feel a certain way, unless we choose to let them make us feel that way. It is very very different from physical abuse. When a person is hit, without choice, without the ability to avoid it.. that is Abuse (as related to the way in which you've used the term).

Now I will apologize if I have in any way offended you, but as I have been abused (physically, mentally and emotionally), I felt the need to point this out and chose to post a response.

Re: Hi Kevin

[lunarpenumbra.livejournal.com]

personally.. I say to hell with Feminism.. far too often I see it used as an excuse to turn the tables just a badly...

I'd rather support Equalism!!

heh heh

[kevin-standlee.livejournal.com]

Ah, well, you're very kind. I was a NASFiC GoH, which is a sort of honorable mention, I reckon.

[yourbob.livejournal.com]

I agree with the cooler heads about the ribbons, but my earlier comment that I'd take one of each of the suggestions was genuine.

Any crowd you're a part of is definitely a crowd I'd aspire to.